Curse

lzlz · Apr 02, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I think you're not getting everyone's points Iziz.

I think you are not quite getting my points, SnipiousMax. Read as follows:

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That's what Savio said, or rather pointed out. You were the one that misread the thread to begin with. He was never asking "What is a build for..." he was posting a build he uses, and Savio's initial post was a comment.

Then what is the issue? Mine is also a comment to Savio's build. Is there any conflict?

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He did. Point is, Warrior spikes are what kill players. Warriors are meant to kill players. Not take damage, not do energy denial, not cast spells. They are meant to kill a player. It is not enough to bring skills to last longer, if you are not making your opposition last less. Simple attacks will not be enough to kill a player, Spike attacks can catch someone in an akward position and result in death. So for an axe, the only real and usable option to spike with is Eviscerate. Swords use Charge, because the sword spike skill is not an elite.

"Warrior spikes" are meant to kill players. But it is wrong to say "warriors are meant to kill players". In many team formation, warriors are used to take damage, assist other players, or even to capture the flag tower. It all depends. And by playing a competitive match, everyone in the team is meant to eliminate the opponents and win. What's your point here?

YES, as you have said "Simple attacks will not be enough to kill a player". Did I say it is WRONG to bring Eviscerate+Executioner? Did I? Can you point it out? My comment to Savio's build is that I think two attack skills are not enough as a spiker. Did you actually get it? or even close?

YES, of course without Eviscerate, Axe cannot really spike hard. But did you read properly what I've argued? I was asking why an Axe warrior must be a spiker, and hence choose Eviscerate but nothing else. Why there can't be any other build for Axe warrior?

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The point is that you only need those two skills to make an effective spike. Sword user's really only need one. So I don't see the point your trying to make here. As for getting away, not sure why you would want to, but he does have sprint and heal sig. That's really all a warrior needs.

Oh really, so only those two skills can be an effective spike? How and Why? Any figures to support what you have said? How much damage you can possibly make before charging up to 8 adrenalines?

Oh, and sword users only need ONE skill to spike?? Are you kidding me? What is that? Final Thrust? LOL. Are you okay?

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Um your numbers for the sword aren't really accurate for the point you're trying to make here. The number's Savio gave happen in two attacks, it's very unlikely they'll get a heal in between two attacks. Your's on the other hand include damage from degen, which is VERY easily countered. So you can pretty much take out the damage done by Sever, cause it's not really part of the spike.

It's unlikely they'll get a heal in between two attacks? Nice, now you have ONE EXTRA assumption to my original 6 assumptions (now there are 9). So you still assume that:
1) You have 16 Axe Mastery + high strength (probably 11/12+)
2) The target is running away from you and you do a critical hit
3) You have your adrenalines charged up for both skills
4) You keep chasing the target (even you are over-tended from your teammates)
5) The target has 480 health or more
6) You can hit your target twice in a row before they got healed/they interupt you/you got blinded/you got knocked down/you got crippling/and
more...
+ 7) Your Target foes is unlikely to get a heal between your two attacks
+ 8) Your Target foes does not have any running skills (+25% or even +33% moving speed)
+ 9) Your Target foes is not using a block/evade skill

Did you read Savio's post carefully? He is assuming the damage as TWO critical hits in a row. That means the target foe must be fleeing away from you and you keep chasing it until you can hit it twice. That means you have to chase -> hit -> chase -> hit. How much time does it need to catch up a foe and deliver two skills in a row?

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1/5 of your health gone, not counting damage done by the attack or damage bonuses. One fifth. Even if you were to be healed right then by a monk. You are still down 1/5 of your health. Poison, Bleeding, Fire, etc, are all easily countered because the damage doesn't all happen at once. Don't get me wrong, the are great to apply pressure on the healers, but degen doesn't kill players. Cripple, Blind, daze, etc. All great, but the of themselves will not kill a player. Losing 1/5 of your health in addtion to a monster spike will kill you.

1/5 of health is gone. So? So that is the deadliest??? Sorry dude, deep wound is also a condition that can be removed. LMAO. Yes, conditions can be removed easily, IF you can do it by yourself, OR you have a promising monk in RA/TA, AND IF your monk can do the healing + remove condition at the same time. Normally, the monk will be the highest priority of target in PVP, right? (I hope you won't deny this). Then while your monk is being pressured, who will remove condition for you? Many conditions can be STACKED together. That means you can have poison + bleeding + disease + weakness at the same time. (it can be done easily by "Virulence"). I cannot see why these other conditions are not as "deadly" as deep wound. One single Burning condition will have 7 degeneration PER second. I cannot see why it is not "deadly".

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Unfortunately, they are facts. What is a fact but a generally accepted and proven theory? Eviscerate works perfectly. The point of an Axe build is to use it. Not opinion, fact.

Unforunately, they are not facts. How is it generally accepted? By a group of friends? How has the "theory" been proven? How did you experiment your "hypothesis" being getting a "theory", and how does it got proven? Show me how. Not just SUBJECTIVE comment and whining "It is fact. No opinion". This is totally ignorant and immature.

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You keep point out that Eviscerate and Ex. strike cost 8 hits each. Did you add up how much your sword spike would cost? And did you think to consider that he's using frenzy? MANY MANY warrior attacks/skills are based on adrenaline. Since it is something many many many many builds have in common, it needs to be eliminated from the converstation. It's not helping your case any.

Both cost 8 adrenalines each means both require 8 adrenalines charged up at the same time before you can USE ANY attack skill. Adrenalines are accumulated individually for each skill. By the time you have adrenalines, you can use one skill, and after that skill hit the foe successfully, you will be recharged instantly for the second skill. You truly think I am a noob? Huh?

Again, what I'm arguing is that the spike potential of Savio's build is low because you cannot use ANY attack skills before you have your first 8 adrenalines saved.

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I'd go through and point out the number of times Savio said that no weapon is better than another, but it'd just waste time as you're either not understanding or listening. WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT AXE IS GREATER THAN SWORD. What we've been arguing is that Axe build w/Eviscerate > Axe build w/o Eviscerate for PvP. That is the basis of this arguement, and as you're arguing the wrong point, you'd do well to re-read the thread.

When I said "you guys", it is a general comment to people who replied my message, including you. Check Yutiko's previous posts in other threads. There are many comments like "Axe rocks" or similar comment.

Sorry, but we are NOT arguing that "Axe build w/Eviscerate > Axe build w/o Eviscerate for PvP". I guess you truly have a problem in reading + understanding + even listening. You better re-read all the posts + other threads that Savio and Yutiko have argued with me about Axe/Sword/Hammer. Do some research before shouting for non-sense, dude.

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Again, no one is saying that it's not that way, why are you bringing it up?

So this is not a discussion forum? Did I go to a wrong place? Maybe they should add an option that "no replies required"? Or simply change this section to "Warrior's build Showcase"? LOL

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A tank will not be able to kill you as you able to kill it. And why the heck would it be one on one. Do you really know how often that happens? Or if it did happen, what the chances would be that you DIDN'T have a res Sig. Only a fool would try and fight a one on one battle if he didn't have too. It's just not something you see. As it is a extremely rare case, it too can be removed from consideration.

Oh, did you read Savio's post? Let me quote it again:

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Originally Posted by Savio

How do you plan to take down a Warrior that has Gladiator's Defense, Riposte, Healing Hands, Healing Breeze, or some other "tanking" skills? It's not by bringing defensive skills yourself.

So are you sure you can kill a tank build with your TWO attack skills? The ultimate-true-fact-no-opinion-proven-theory "Evis+Exec" combo can surely outrage a Warrior with Glad Defense + Riposte + Healing Hands + Healing Breeze + some other "tanking" skills?

Man, I tell you what, by the time you have saved up 8 adrenalines, you are already dead. Don't LMAO.

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Okay, you do not attack the warrior first. You don't ever attack a warrior while there is another target avalible. Again, do you know how often you get an ALL warrior team? Another very Rare instance.

DID YOU READ PROPERLY? Did you? Or you actually have a problem in reading?

Savio has the same point as you did -- that is -- "Warrior will not attack other warrior when other target is available". But is it really TRUE for the RA/TA scenario? Log in the game and bring your warrior to RA. Tell me the probability that your warrior is not getting hit by another warrior.

I quote my post for the THIRD TIME:
"In RA, it is most likely a warrior will attack another warrior. It is because sometimes maybe the whole opponent team are warriors. Or sometimes, there are always players who are not as "pro" as you do and they won't care anything but attack warriors first just to prove that they are "stronger". Some will just chase a monk or mesmer all around the map until they realize their whole team is dead already "rez please!!". There are all other new players who did stupid things in RA, EVEN in GVG. So I cannot see the point that a warrior will not be attacked by another warrior. This is just a stupid and unrealistic assumption, especially for RA."

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Charge = Elite

Eviscerate = Elite

Axe Spike Build = Eviscearte

Axe spike build cannot have Charge.

That's why.

WHO SAID I am talking about Spike? DID YOU READ properly? My argument is that "Why axe must be a spiker?" "Why axe cannot be a utility build just like sword?". If you can have other build rather than the Evis-Exec combo, you can actually bring "Charge" just like sword warriors. Sword warriors give up their Weaponry Elite "Hundred Blades" simply because they think it may not be as useful as "Charge" do. So can a non-spike axe warrior bring "Charge" too?

Your stupidity makes me burst to laugh.

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You missed Byron's point entirely. You weren't even close. It's like he said something, and you were reading a different post when you did your response. In fact, what he said is closer to your own arguements.

Are we reading the same post, the same language? Byron said it seems silly to him to structure a warrior around RA. It is because he thinks RA is so random that not a specific build will really work. That's true. But what we have here? Savio's build and Glitched's build. And what are we doing here? To discuss how those two builds actually work in RA. Truly RA is random, GVG/HoH can be random too.

There is not a single build which can counter all situations, no matter in GVG/HoH/RA/TA/PVE or whatever. So that's why people are posting their builds that they prefer here.

Can you see what your problem is?

lzlz · Apr 02, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

edited post, reread.

Savio · Apr 02, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Covering the main points, ignoring the crap arguments like "Savio and Yukito posted 'we <3 axes' in other threads":

1. Warriors do not "support" the other classes; aside from the occasional Charge they are there to do damage, pure and simple. They don't heal, they don't remove hexes, they don't buff, they don't run flags. Well, they could do the 4 things just listed, but they'd do a terrible job.

2. Spiking consists of doing a gross amount of damage in a short period of time. Bleeding and other forms of DPS are not spiking. (Also, 1 arrow of health regen/degen is 2 health a second, not 1.)

3. I don't only bring 2 attack skills, just like I don't bring only 6 skills total. Evis and Exe go hand in hand, but they don't go alone. Read again.

4. Deep Wound is not meant to be a condition that stays on the target indefinitely. It's used to spike a target so he dies. If the spike fails and he's still alive, it doesn't matter much whether Deep Wound is still on him or not, as Deep Wound is a one-time effect, unlike Blind, Bleeding, or any other Condition. Even if it is removed, it just gets put back on the next time the Warrior spikes.

5. Any of the assumptions you make for Eviscerate-Executioner's Strike applies to Sever-Gash-Final or any other combo you make up. (It is also unrealistic to assume a 11-12 Strength; 9-10 is the standard.) So do the assumptions favor Evis or Final more? How about realistic conditions?

6. The only available spike options for Warriors are dependent on building up large amounts of adrenaline. Eviscerate, even at 8 strikes, is 2 strikes cheaper than Final Thrust or Backbreaker, and is only 1 more than Devastating or Gash. Not using other Adrenaline-based attack skills before the spike, or using them conservatively, is a problem with any Warrior.

sh4ft3d · Apr 02, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

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Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

An Axe user with Battle Rage can't Spike, or rather, do a spike worth damage, and is therefore, less of a threat...

You want to do something worthwhile on the battlefield? You either Eviscerate or use another weapon lol...

You can deal damage without spiking, and Battle Rage is an amzing increase in dps. It is possible to deal damage without Eviscerate. It is a great elite, but being able to crank out the amazing number of adrenal skill that Battle Rage can is VERY effective at pressuring. As Savio said, no IAS can crank out 50% more damage, but Battle Rage almost can if I am not mistaken.
EDIT: I am not claiming that BR is an IAS. Just clarifying.

lzlz · Apr 02, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

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Originally Posted by Savio

1. Warriors do not "support" the other classes; aside from the occasional Charge they are there to do damage, pure and simple. They don't heal, they don't remove hexes, they don't buff, they don't run flags. Well, they could do the 4 things just listed, but they'd do a terrible job.

I think we may have different interpretation of the word "support". Being supportive in a team does NOT ONLY mean you have to heal others or remove hexes. Many players with Primary Warrior or Secondary Warrior profession will equip skills like "Charge", "Watch Yourself", and "Shield Up". If you have read all warrior skills carefully (especially the tactics section), you will realize that some skills are designed to be effective to both you and your allies. Anet did this on purpose so that it leaves a room for a warrior to be supportive in a group battle, but not only one single purpose as you assume -- just to spike but nothing else. Your assumption is that Warrior (esp Axe warrior) plays as an individual in PVP. They only aim to spike but nothing else. All other classes should "support" him so that he can be the "hero" of the match. I tell you what, watch how those top guilds utilize these skills to greatly improve their whole team's overall defense.

It is my first time to hear that Warriors will do a terrible job in capturing the flag tower. LOL. Alright, just stay in your own mind with everything you believe which is eternally right. Try to switch the observer's mode and see how those top guilds manage to get the flag tower with a warrior. And please tell me why a warrior will do a terrible job in capturing the flag tower? Maybe your guild will send a monk to do the flag job. LMAO. Take "The Last Pride" as example. their main flag capturer is "Last of Master" (a sword warrior W/E). EViL only has 8 members in their guild and "Last of Master" is mainly responsible for capturing the flag tower, especially in the 2 FINAL battles of the World Championship. Maybe you will say "oh, The Last Pride did a terrible job". Say this when you are the World Championship. I will wait for you. LOL

And excuse me, I only said three things for a warrior being a "supportive" role. They are: "take damage, assist other players, or even to capture the flag tower". I never said a Warrior can heal or remove hexes for other teammates. Again, please don't push what you've imagined into my mouth just because you have nothing to say.

Let us take a look on how you used the word "support" in Post #11:

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Originally Posted by Savio

By the way, in the current RA situation you wouldn't bring a Warrior if you wanted to be most effective. No guaranteed support for the Warrior = sucky Warrior.

What do you mean by "support"? Oh, maybe it is another definition again. You always change your mind anyway.

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2. Spiking consists of doing a gross amount of damage in a short period of time. Bleeding and other forms of DPS are not spiking. (Also, 1 arrow of health regen/degen is 2 health a second, not 1.)

"Spiking consists of doing a gross amount of damage in a short period of time." Yes, so bleeding/poison/disease and other forms of conditions are NOT "damage"? And what does it mean by "short period of time"? Does the time you need to save up 8 adrenalines + using the two skills = short period of time? Is -8 degen (16 damage per second) considered as a "gross amount of damage in a short period of time"? ROFL

Thanks for correcting me that the health degen is -2 per second. So it means bleeding for 26 seconds will do a total of 26 x 4 x 2 = 208 damage if it is not removed instantly. Let's say you need 10 seconds to save up to 8 adrenalines and spike your two skills. For the 10 seconds of bleeding, the total damage is 10 x 4 x 2 = 80 damage, which is pretty decent. And do you actually know the essence for "conditions" in a battle? The constant degeneration is to give constant pressure and damage to your target foes. The target foes needs to use an extra skill (thus extra energy and extra time) to remove the condition away. And it is a good chance for the attacker to deliver even more damage to finish all the target. Also, degen conditions are effective in cancelling out any health regen skills or degrading the effectiveness of any healing skills.

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3. I don't only bring 2 attack skills, just like I don't bring only 6 skills total. Evis and Exe go hand in hand, but they don't go alone. Read again.

Yes, I did read very clearly. Of course I did not assume that you only bring 6 skills and then get slayed by others. lol I don't wanna recall all the spare skills you mentioned to put in the 2 blank slots. But all of them are NOT attack skills, or attack skills designed for spiking purpose.

Quoting YOUR definition again, "Spiking consists of doing a gross amount of damage in a short period of time." Which of the spare skills you have mentioned will fulfill this requirement? Plague Touch? Bull's Strike? or Wild Blow?? LOL

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4. Deep Wound is not meant to be a condition that stays on the target indefinitely. It's used to spike a target so he dies. If the spike fails and he's still alive, it doesn't matter much whether Deep Wound is still on him or not, as Deep Wound is a one-time effect, unlike Blind, Bleeding, or any other Condition. Even if it is removed, it just gets put back on the next time the Warrior spikes.

WHEN did I say Deep wound is meant to be a condition that stays on the target indefinitely??? Please point it out. Again, don't push trash talk into my mouth.

You always saying things that favour my argument. Thank you.

Because SnipiousMax said Deep Wound is the "deadliest" condition ever in game, so I just tried to point out that it may not so. Many other conditions can be as "deadly" as Deep Wound, turning your favour for Eviscerate down.

If Deep Wound has been removed, then why it doesn't matter if it is still on the target foes or not?? When deep wound is removed, your max health is back to normal, same result to all other conditions when they are being removed.

By the way, Deep Wound will lower one's health by 20%, but it will not kill a player. Let's say when the target foe only has 75 health left, your deep wound condition can lower foe's max health by 96, but this condition will not kill the foe. The foe will stay as 1 health left until you deliver your last blow to finish it off (That's why you always see your target foes undead even their health bar shows as "empty"). Unlike other conditions such as bleeding/poison/disease/burning, the target foes will die instantly when their health is degenerated to 0.

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5. Any of the assumptions you make for Eviscerate-Executioner's Strike applies to Sever-Gash-Final or any other combo you make up. (It is also unrealistic to assume a 11-12 Strength; 9-10 is the standard.) So do the assumptions favor Evis or Final more? How about realistic conditions?

I know it is unrealistic to assume a 11-12 strength build. Yes, 9-10 is generally accepted standard. It is what I use too. But you said you have HIGH strength. Did I read it wrong? So does HIGH mean something more than the average standard? Or in your own dictionary, HIGH = Standard?

And why is strength related to the Evis-Exec and the Sever-Gash-Final combos? Are they related?? Does Strength have anything to do with "Axe Mastery" and "Swordmanship"??? I doubt.

The Realistic condition is that your assumptions for delivering 300 damage by the two skills in a row is unrealistic. LOL

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6. The only available spike options for Warriors are dependent on building up large amounts of adrenaline. Eviscerate, even at 8 strikes, is 2 strikes cheaper than Final Thrust or Backbreaker, and is only 1 more than Devastating or Gash. Not using other Adrenaline-based attack skills before the spike, or using them conservatively, is a problem with any Warrior.

Not really true. Many skills with high spiking potential actually consumes Energy, especially for Hammer skills.

I did not say any problem with the 8 adrenalines cost for Eviscerate. It is very reasonable for its damage and condition provided, especially it is an elite skill. Again, my argument is that Your build seems failing to achieve the purpose as to "spike".

Thanks for writing back, Savio. You made my day (April 1st - Fool's day) LOL

Savio · Apr 02, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

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Originally Posted by sh4ft3d

As Savio said, no IAS can crank out 50% more damage, but Battle Rage almost can if I am not mistaken.

The way the game mechanics work for swing time and IAS, 33% IAS is equal to 50% more attacks, which means 50% more damage and 50% more adrenaline. (4/3 second swing time * 2/3 = 8/9 second swing time) The main problems with Battle Rage is that it wipes Adrenaline every time you reuse it, you can't use it and an IAS at the same time, and you lose out on all the Elite attack skills. Who cares if you get adrenaline at twice the normal rate if all you're restricted to are Penetrating Blow, Executioner's Strike, and Dismember for spiking, and you can't even use them with an IAS? (Same with Hammer: what are you going to do without Devastating or Backbreaker?)

SnipiousMax · Apr 02, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

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Originally Posted by lzlz

I think you are not quite getting my points, SnipiousMax.

No I am, they're just weak points.

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Originally Posted by lzlz

Then what is the issue? Mine is also a comment to Savio's build. Is there any conflict?

You should read what you were commenting on, you were just reaming Savio for the very thing you were doing.

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"Warrior spikes" are meant to kill players. But it is wrong to say "warriors are meant to kill players". In many team formation, warriors are used to take damage, assist other players, or even to capture the flag tower. It all depends. And by playing a competitive match, everyone in the team is meant to eliminate the opponents and win. What's your point here?

If you are using a Warrior for anything but killing stuff....you would be better off to play another class. How does 'taking damage' win? It doesn't. Dealing out more damage than dealt to you is winning. Spiking is what kills, not degen.

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Originally Posted by lzlz

YES, as you have said "Simple attacks will not be enough to kill a player". Did I say it is WRONG to bring Eviscerate+Executioner? Did I? Can you point it out? My comment to Savio's build is that I think two attack skills are not enough as a spiker. Did you actually get it? or even close?

You did. You've pointed out why you think eviscerate is a horrible skill many times. Even chuckling to yourself over our stupidity (I should count the number of lolz and roflz and lmao's to push this point but I won't). I did get it. Two skills leaves 6 blank slots. Two skills are spike based, the rest is your playground.

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Originally Posted by lzlz

YES, of course without Eviscerate, Axe cannot really spike hard. But did you read properly what I've argued? I was asking why an Axe warrior must be a spiker, and hence choose Eviscerate but nothing else. Why there can't be any other build for Axe warrior?

An axe warrior cannot use Charge because his spike skill is Eviscerate which is an elite. Sure you can use charge as an axe warrior but that leaves you without the Evis+Exe combo, which makes you a subpar warrior. Sword Warriors CAN use charge because they don't require an elite to have an effective spike combo. That's been said more than once. If you don't have a way of dealing a huge amount of damage in a short time, you are not doing your job as a warrior.

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Oh really, so only those two skills can be an effective spike? How and Why? Any figures to support what you have said? How much damage you can possibly make before charging up to 8 adrenalines?

Alot, you're using frenzy, and other skills that don't require adrenaline. All warriors have to build up adrenaline, you keep bringing this up as proof why this combo sucks (even though you claim you're not saying that) and everytime we say the same thing. Having to build up adrenaline is something a warrior has to face, regardless of axe, sword or hammer.

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Oh, and sword users only need ONE skill to spike?? Are you kidding me? What is that? Final Thrust? LOL. Are you okay?

Yes. Final thrust is the only 'Spike' skill they need. I didn't say its the only skill they're bringing. And yes, I'm fine.

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It's unlikely they'll get a heal in between two attacks? Nice, now you have ONE EXTRA assumption to my original 6 assumptions (now there are 9).

Funny thing about that list. It applies to the combo you posted as well. So I don't see why you keep posting it.

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Did you read Savio's post carefully? He is assuming the damage as TWO critical hits in a row. That means the target foe must be fleeing away from you and you keep chasing it until you can hit it twice. That means you have to chase -> hit -> chase -> hit. How much time does it need to catch up a foe and deliver two skills in a row?

With sprint, not much. You did notice he brought sprint didn't you. Did you think that was to run from another warrior?

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1/5 of health is gone. So? So that is the deadliest??? Sorry dude, deep wound is also a condition that can be removed. LMAO. Yes, conditions can be removed easily, IF you can do it by yourself, OR you have a promising monk in RA/TA, AND IF your monk can do the healing + remove condition at the same time. Normally, the monk will be the highest priority of target in PVP, right? (I hope you won't deny this). Then while your monk is being pressured, who will remove condition for you? Many conditions can be STACKED together. That means you can have poison + bleeding + disease + weakness at the same time. (it can be done easily by "Virulence"). I cannot see why these other conditions are not as "deadly" as deep wound. One single Burning condition will have 7 degeneration PER second. I cannot see why it is not "deadly".

Degen is easily undone, without having to remove it. A simple heal will make up for degen, no condition removal is needed.

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Unforunately, they are not facts. How is it generally accepted? By a group of friends? How has the "theory" been proven? How did you experiment your "hypothesis" being getting a "theory", and how does it got proven? Show me how. Not just SUBJECTIVE comment and whining "It is fact. No opinion". This is totally ignorant and immature.

You need to pay more attention to the PvP metagame. That is where it has been proved. That is where it is accepted.

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Both cost 8 adrenalines each means both require 8 adrenalines charged up at the same time before you can USE ANY attack skill. Adrenalines are accumulated individually for each skill. By the time you have adrenalines, you can use one skill, and after that skill hit the foe successfully, you will be recharged instantly for the second skill. You truly think I am a noob? Huh?

Again, using two slots for the combo leaves 6 free slots. And the idea behind a spike is that you time your attack, so it really doesn't matter if you use any skill till your combo is charged. You unlesh it all at once and then go back to pressuring with IAS damage.

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Again, what I'm arguing is that the spike potential of Savio's build is low because you cannot use ANY attack skills before you have your first 8 adrenalines saved.

YOU DON'T NEED TO. Frenzy deals a mean amount of damage, and lets you charge your attacks faster.

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When I said "you guys", it is a general comment to people who replied my message, including you. Check Yutiko's previous posts in other threads. There are many comments like "Axe rocks" or similar comment.

His comment in this thread said that if you don't want to use Eviscerate, then you'd be better off switching weapons. That has nothing to do with 'Sword-Hate' or whatever you are trying to increase public awareness of.

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Sorry, but we are NOT arguing that "Axe build w/Eviscerate > Axe build w/o Eviscerate for PvP". I guess you truly have a problem in reading + understanding + even listening. You better re-read all the posts + other threads that Savio and Yutiko have argued with me about Axe/Sword/Hammer. Do some research before shouting for non-sense, dude.

None of Savio's or Yutiko's posts in this thread have said that. And from your reaction to simple comments in this thread, I'm sure you twisted what they have said in other threads as well.

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So this is not a discussion forum? Did I go to a wrong place? Maybe they should add an option that "no replies required"? Or simply change this section to "Warrior's build Showcase"? LOL

I was refering to the fact that you're accusing people of things that they didn't say or infer. A few of your points that you've been arguing, have been points no one else has even refered to.

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So are you sure you can kill a tank build with your TWO attack skills? The ultimate-true-fact-no-opinion-proven-theory "Evis+Exec" combo can surely outrage a Warrior with Glad Defense + Riposte + Healing Hands + Healing Breeze + some other "tanking" skills?

Never said two attack skills, two spike skills. Here I'll post what I said again:

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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

The point is you only need those two skills to make an effective spike. Sword user's really only need one. So I don't see the point your trying to make here. As for getting away, not sure why you would want to, but he does have sprint and heal sig. That's really all a warrior needs.

Two skills to spike, not 'only two attack skills.' Your making assumptions.

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Man, I tell you what, by the time you have saved up 8 adrenalines, you are already dead. Don't LMAO.

Again your attacking the combo, despite saying that you're not. And no you won't be. Cause they'll be busy attacking another target. The times you are attacked first are few and far between, and are most likely the result of you sprinting out ahead of everyone. When you play wisely, you will not be the first target. So you might add that little snipit to the list of assumptions. That you are under attack!

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DID YOU READ PROPERLY? Did you? Or you actually have a problem in reading?

I'm reading fine. I do however appreciate your concern.

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Savio has the same point as you did -- that is -- "Warrior will not attack other warrior when other target is available". But is it really TRUE for the RA/TA scenario? Log in the game and bring your warrior to RA. Tell me the probability that your warrior is not getting hit by another warrior.

Warrior will not get hit first, unless he does something stupid. Like leave his team in the dust. Attacking a warrior is wasting your damage on heavy armor. You do not attack a warrior unless you have to. That's just common sense.

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I quote my post for the THIRD TIME:
"In RA, it is most likely a warrior will attack another warrior. It is because sometimes maybe the whole opponent team are warriors. Or sometimes, there are always players who are not as "pro" as you do and they won't care anything but attack warriors first just to prove that they are "stronger". Some will just chase a monk or mesmer all around the map until they realize their whole team is dead already "rez please!!". There are all other new players who did stupid things in RA, EVEN in GVG. So I cannot see the point that a warrior will not be attacked by another warrior. This is just a stupid and unrealistic assumption, especially for RA."

Again, if a warrior is being attacked, It's cause he's the last target left. If people are attacking me, while my team is alive, then they are not going to be much of a threat. I'd rather they attack me than my monk anyday. But even if they were attacking me, they're not gonna kill me with tanking skills!

And I'm not going to attack them till last, so their defensive skills are just wasted space. Once I finish off their softies, then my team will just focus fire on the warrior(s)

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WHO SAID I am talking about Spike? DID YOU READ properly? My argument is that "Why axe must be a spiker?" "Why axe cannot be a utility build just like sword?". If you can have other build rather than the Evis-Exec combo, you can actually bring "Charge" just like sword warriors. Sword warriors give up their Weaponry Elite "Hundred Blades" simply because they think it may not be as useful as "Charge" do. So can a non-spike axe warrior bring "Charge" too?

An axe warrior cannot use Charge because his spike skill is Eviscerate which is an elite. Sure you can use charge as an axe warrior but that leaves you without the Evis+Exe combo, which makes you a subpar warrior. Sword Warriors CAN use charge because they don't require an elite to have an effective spike combo. Again.

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Your stupidity makes me burst to laugh.

The irony is priceless.

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Byron said it seems silly to him to structure a warrior around RA. It is because he thinks RA is so random that not a specific build will really work. That's true.

So you agree with it, and you said his comment was trash.

lzlz · Apr 02, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Alright, it seems I have made somebody mad. No problem, dude, I will reply as much as I can to satisfy your eagerness in argument. I noticed that you've tried to avoid some of the points I've mentioned, as you have NO WAY to argue back. LOL. See how weak you are at debating. When I reply somebody's message, I will reply as a whole, but not picking on several points that you can "squeeze" something to talk about.

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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

No I am, they're just weak points.

So it is your weakest sentence you can ever make?? It has no difference from your infamous immature sentence ever found in this forum --- "No opinion. Fact". OMG, I really wanna quote it in my signature if I can. Too bad

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You should read what you were commenting on, you were just reaming Savio for the very thing you were doing.

How did I "ream" Savio? Can you name any examples please?

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If you are using a Warrior for anything but killing stuff....you would be better off to play another class. How does 'taking damage' win? It doesn't. Dealing out more damage than dealt to you is winning. Spiking is what kills, not degen.

Did I say Warrior will NOT do killings? I just say Warrior can sometimes play a supportive role in a team battle, and it actually greatly helps the whole team in PVP. Skills like "Charge!", "Shield up", "Watch yourself" will greatly help your teammates, especially those with low AL. Did I say that a supportive Warrior will not bring any attack or offensive skills? What is your logic behind? Did I say that you can win a match just by "taking damage"? Either you have hullucination or you have rich imagination?

As Savio said, "Spiking consists of doing a gross amount of damage in a short period of time." Conditions with health degernation will also do massive damage. Did you see my point? And what is your point?

Stop replying by just saying "No, you are wrong." without giving a reason. Is it all you can ever do to not losing faces? Or simply you find no way to counter my argument?

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You did. You've pointed out why you think eviscerate is a horrible skill many times. Even chuckling to yourself over our stupidity (I should count the number of lolz and roflz and lmao's to push this point but I won't). I did get it. Two skills leaves 6 blank slots. Two skills are spike based, the rest is your playground.

Quote the sentence that I said "eviscerate is a horrible skill". I really couldn't stop laughing because of a fool like you. Do you have anything else to say? You are simply whining and crying like a baby by saying something like "You like Red Color. That sucks! I win!" Excuse me, but how old are you?

"Two skills are spike based, the rest is your playground"?? I get what you mean but may I ask where are you from?

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An axe warrior cannot use Charge because his spike skill is Eviscerate which is an elite. Sure you can use charge as an axe warrior but that leaves you without the Evis+Exe combo, which makes you a subpar warrior. Sword Warriors CAN use charge because they don't require an elite to have an effective spike combo. That's been said more than once. If you don't have a way of dealing a huge amount of damage in a short time, you are not doing your job as a warrior.

Listen and Read, unless you can't. My question is if an Axe warrior can do other build rather than "Spiking"?

Oh, so if I am not dealing a huge amount of damage in a short time, then I am not doing a job as a warrior??? Why does this game allows you to combine different professions together? So you are implying that Warriors are for spiking but nothing else? Same as your friend, Savio? And you implying that all other jobs are not designed to deliver damage???

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Alot, you're using frenzy, and other skills that don't require adrenaline. All warriors have to build up adrenaline, you keep bringing this up as proof why this combo sucks (even though you claim you're not saying that) and everytime we say the same thing. Having to build up adrenaline is something a warrior has to face, regardless of axe, sword or hammer.

Did I say this combo "sucks"? Did I? You have poor interpretation skill. From the very beginning, my argument is that "Savio's build with merely two attack skills is not effective/efficient to achieve the "spiking" purpose.

Yes, most warriors need to build up adrenaline to use their skills. Then how is it related to your accusation on me that I said "Evis+Exec = sucks"??

Geez...

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Yes. Final thrust is the only 'Spike' skill they need. I didn't say its the only skill they're bringing. And yes, I'm fine.

LOL. Alright, dude, whatever you say = right. Is it ok? You can even say that you can spike by only bringing the skill "Wild Blow". Good for you.

Oh yea, can you please stop making yourself like a fool?

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Funny thing about that list. It applies to the combo you posted as well. So I don't see why you keep posting it.

I point out the assumptions Savio made just to show that the chance to achieve the damage he mentioned (300 damage by two skills in a row) is very low. And by refering to the assumptions he made, I pointed out how other weapon can do similar or even higher damage. You are indeed funny.

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With sprint, not much. You did notice he brought sprint didn't you. Did you think that was to run from another warrior?

You mean you can easily catch up with your target foes when you're using sprint, right? Did you read my assumptions carefully? What if the target foes use other moving speed skill (Mesmer, Ranger, Elementalist all have +25% or +33% moving speed)? Or what if they use skill to slow you down (from -50% to -90% moving speed)? What if you are being crippled? Can you catch up with them? What if they are using an evade/block skill? Are you sure you have 8 adrenalines ready when you start chasing? There are so many uncertainties, which supports my argument that the Chance to achieve 300 damage by two skills in a row is low.

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Degen is easily undone, without having to remove it. A simple heal will make up for degen, no condition removal is needed.

You mean degeneration will only last a very short period of time or you mean degeneration can be removed easily? "A simple heal" = using healing signet? Are you sure you can make up the difference? Either you have never experienced -8 or higher degen or simply you are using "Heal Party" or "Word of Healing"? It doesn't even count other hexes you may encounter at the same time.

And you know we are talking about RA/TA, right?

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You need to pay more attention to the PvP metagame. That is where it has been proved. That is where it is accepted.

You haven't explained how they are proven? Simply because your comments are based on your personal experience so they are proven as eternal Fact of the universe? Excuse me, who are you? Don't LMAO. You seem like a spoiled kid who just refused to accept any other opinions apart from yours.

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Again, using two slots for the combo leaves 6 free slots. And the idea behind a spike is that you time your attack, so it really doesn't matter if you use any skill till your combo is charged. You unlesh it all at once and then go back to pressuring with IAS damage.

How to time your attack by those two attack skills which both require 8 adrenalines? You have to wait until you have adrenaline charged anyway, right? Oh, so what you mean by good timing is that you may have to choose the right timing to attack, even you have your skills charged up? So will there be further more delay in order to achieve high spiking purpose?

Unleash what all at once?? Eviscerate + Executioner's Chop? Oh, giving pressure by IAS? What if you are being attacked at that time? Are you assuming that your target foe and its allies will just run around and not attack you while you are attacking their monks/casters? Gimme a break, dude.

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YOU DON'T NEED TO. Frenzy deals a mean amount of damage, and lets you charge your attacks faster.

The average damage of Axe normal attack is very close or even lower than Sword normal attack. So why do you "deal a mean amount of damage" with Frenzy? And simple point -- are you free of attacks at that time? This doesn't always happen in RA. It may be so in GVG, but not in RA/TA. Cuz it is a tight 4 vs 4 battle within a small map. You are very likely being attacked most of the time, especially warriors are the highest threat to the opponent team. They won't let you to kill their monks/teammates without attacking you/casting hexes and conditions on you/slow you down/interupt you...etc. Be realistic.

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His comment in this thread said that if you don't want to use Eviscerate, then you'd be better off switching weapons. That has nothing to do with 'Sword-Hate' or whatever you are trying to increase public awareness of.

Did I ever try to increase public awareness? I joined this forum since May 2005 and I didn't have more than 100 posts. I am always a silent reader until I read some threads that I'd like to reply.

So back to my argument again --- is it that Axe Warrior can only use Eviscerate but nothing else? Is it that Axe warrior can only be a spiker but nothing else?

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None of Savio's or Yutiko's posts in this thread have said that. And from your reaction to simple comments in this thread, I'm sure you twisted what they have said in other threads as well.

Check their post records. I did read forum everyday.

I only said "Savio and Yutiko have argued with me about Axe/Sword/Hammer", just like right now.

Are you okay?

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I was refering to the fact that you're accusing people of things that they didn't say or infer. A few of your points that you've been arguing, have been points no one else has even refered to.

It seems you are accusing me for things that I haven't said. Name the sentences that I falsely accused them, if you can.

They didn't refer to my point maybe because they found no reasons to deny it, same to your situation when you are avoiding some of my points.

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Never said two attack skills, two spike skills. Here I'll post what I said again:

Two skills to spike, not 'only two attack skills.' Your making assumptions.

So "Spike skills" are something NEW and they are NOT "Attack skills"?? WoW! Can you explain more for me please? I am a noob!

What is your logic? I didn't even assume anything. Are we speaking in the same language?

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Again your attacking the combo, despite saying that you're not. And no you won't be. Cause they'll be busy attacking another target. The times you are attacked first are few and far between, and are most likely the result of you sprinting out ahead of everyone. When you play wisely, you will not be the first target. So you might add that little snipit to the list of assumptions. That you are under attack!

I didn't quite understand what you were talking about. They seem kinda pointless to me. Savio said his build with "Evis + Exec" can theoretically take off a tank build warrior with "Glad Defense + riposte + healing breeze + other tank skills". So I just point out that it doesn't seem possible.

It's simple. Glad and Riposte are blocking skills. When you are attack that warrior, you are the only one who takes damages. With Healing Breeze + other tank skills, that tank warrior merely take any damage from you even "you unleashed your two skills". By the time you charge up 8 adrenalines, you've already taken a huge load of damage. If you choose not to attack the tank warrior, your adrenaline will be charged up extremely slow. So? You see how clear my argument is now?

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I'm reading fine. I do however appreciate your concern.

Thank you. You are welcome. I hope you are really fine.

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Warrior will not get hit first, unless he does something stupid. Like leave his team in the dust. Attacking a warrior is wasting your damage on heavy armor. You do not attack a warrior unless you have to. That's just common sense.

Yes, and did you read my posts? Many people just don't have this common sense in RA. I'm so sorry that you are still sticking with this old point that Savio and Me have already finished discussing.

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Again, if a warrior is being attacked, It's cause he's the last target left. If people are attacking me, while my team is alive, then they are not going to be much of a threat. I'd rather they attack me than my monk anyday. But even if they were attacking me, they're not gonna kill me with tanking skills!

And I'm not going to attack them till last, so their defensive skills are just wasted space. Once I finish off their softies, then my team will just focus fire on the warrior(s)

You are assuming that:
1) Your opponents play the SAME WAY as you do -- which is that "their warriors will not attack you until you are the last one left"
2) Your team is alive and they don't
The first assumption is possible, if they are experienced players. But it may not be frequent in RA/TA. And what if your team are mainly warriors or melee players? Those warriors have no choice but to attack you. It always happens since warrior is one of the most popular professions in game.

The second assumption is just stupid. If your team is alive and they don't, your team will won anyway, except you guys are pathetic (but it doesn't seem so cuz you have killed all other 3 enemies already)

Oh, and now you prefer them to attack you instead of your monk? Oh, and you are using tanking skills? Did you just say in the previous paragraph that the Evis-Exec combo can kill the Tank warrior build? Contradicted???

By the way, what are softies? You mean soft targets?

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An axe warrior cannot use Charge because his spike skill is Eviscerate which is an elite. Sure you can use charge as an axe warrior but that leaves you without the Evis+Exe combo, which makes you a subpar warrior. Sword Warriors CAN use charge because they don't require an elite to have an effective spike combo. Again.

As I have said, Axe warrior must have Eviscerate IF THEY WANT TO BE A SPIKER. I am asking if there can be any other AXE build that you can use other elite skill rather than Evis IF YOU ARE NOT PLAYING AS A SPIKER.

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The irony is priceless.

The free jokes are truly entertaining. Thanks for being a Fool to make up my day.

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So you agree with it, and you said his comment was trash.

Wow! Did I say Savio's comment was "trash"?
Savio is an experienced player who has solid points in his argument. It's just I don't agree with some of his points in terms of the build he posted.
Never say other's comment as "trash". It will just make what others think you are. Respect others. And please stop crying/whining...

SnipiousMax · Apr 02, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

To point out what you've been doing the whole time you've been posting. I'll do this one last time. Then to avoid contribuiting more to a redundant and repetative thread, I'm done.

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Originally Posted by lzlz

Wow! Did I say Savio's comment was "trash"?
Savio is an experienced player who has solid points in his argument. It's just I don't agree with some of his points in terms of the build he posted.
Never say other's comment as "trash". It will just make what others think you are. Respect others. And please stop crying/whining...

You didn't. You said Byron's Statement was trash. Well you called it Bull**** not trash, but I don't resort to swearing. Within two posts, you've already forgot what you were talking about. You've been doing that with everything everyone else has posted. You make a statement, then when someone calls you on it, you've already forgotten what you said to begin with. So call names, laugh all you want. I don't feel the fool.

Savio · Apr 02, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Yep, it's redundant and repetitive. Closed.